Curse

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Ok, here is my newest debate: Why use an ele? The main purpose of an ele is to nuke. (or at least thats what most people use ele's for). Later in the game, for SF, UW and FOW, most groups neglect to use ele's because necro's (MM and SS) are much more effective. Esepcially after the AoE nerf, nukers spells hurt the group as opposed to helping.

Other skills besides fire are used as well, but aren't solely for damage, rather status effecting. If thats the case, it seems that one would choose mesmar or ranger for interupt and status effecting spells for effectiveness.

Again, besides having more energy than most why use an ele?
What could an ele do better than other classes.
If you have an elementalist, and still use in PvE, what builds do you use? Why should someone invite you into their group?

IMO i feel that ele's are the weakest of the 6 classes even though i understand the game tried it best to distrubute classes evenly.

wilebill · Dec 31, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Well, Nosaj, I don't know the answer. I have a fully leveled ele/mo/mesmer, who can do earth, air, fire, or water. I myself am uncertain what to do with the ele now. I put a lot of time and effort into him, but he's sort of on the shelf at the moment. My warrior, ranger, and monk all seem more fun to play.

If ANet was going to do something to weaken the nuking capability of the ele, I think they should have given the ele some compensation by removing the nasty exhaustion restrictions on the better ele spells.

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

i don't think A-net intended the latest Aoe nerf to hurt an ele as much as it did. The porpose was to hinder solo farming (IE symbol of wrath, balth aura, ect...) It just so happened that ele's seem to be hurt the most in normal gameplay by this nerf.

What do others think?

Plague · Dec 31, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Earth and Water spells have become more effective, as far as slowing spells or protection wards go. Fire spells still have quite a few instant-damage spells. Air spike spells still work, although this is PvE.

My suggestion is to try to make your spells work together. Elementalists are probably the only class, possibly next to Rangers at times, that never had to bother setting up a real skillbar, and just throw together favorite attack spells since they're all fairly generic. I see a lot more creativity coming out of nukers now, usually combining group knockdowns with AoE so that not only are they still effective, but they're also running denial builds.

Thrawn Foxheed · Dec 31, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

My first character was a E/mo fire nuker, lvl 20 now, but i play my ranger a LOT more as it just seems to be more fun and flexible. Being an ele is slightly restricting to what one can do, even though dabbling in each of the magics, they are used for different things... i just dont have as much fun with my ele as with my ranger
~^__^

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Earth and Water spells have become more effective, as far as slowing spells or protection wards go. Fire spells still have quite a few instant-damage spells. Air spike spells still work, although this is PvE.

My suggestion is to try to make your spells work together. Elementalists are probably the only class, possibly next to Rangers at times, that never had to bother setting up a real skillbar, and just throw together favorite attack spells since they're all fairly generic. I see a lot more creativity coming out of nukers now, usually combining group knockdowns with AoE so that not only are they still effective, but they're also running denial builds.

You make a good point, but i'm more concerned with the events late in the game where groups are looking for specific builds.

Monks = Heal or prot build.
Ranger = trapper/interupt
Warrior = tank/interupt
Necro = SS / SV / Battery
Mes = Interupt/annoy the hell out of everything
Ele = not as effective at any one particular thing as other classes

led-zep · Dec 31, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

exactly right, the ele was a high damage low armour class, people say go protect or slowdown but other classes do it so much better, i havent played my ele since the nerf as what an ele did best was totally destroyed. it really was bad that they took so much from an ele and gave nothing back

Sekkira · Dec 31, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

To add insult to injury, people say DoT AoE spells on the fire ele are great for defense now. Lets ignore their original purpose was to do damage. On top of that, Fire eles were still underpowered when it came to damage compared to other classes. They were more or less due for a buff.

Sure it was great to improve they AI, nothing against that, but it shafts the purpose of eles all together really.

LifeInfusion · Dec 31, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

"zOMG Y uz an ele..." thread...

I am elementalist monk. I have been an elementalist monk since 2004 betas.

Why use elementalist:
You can play offensive and defensive (with any element except fire, ugh fire).
You have the most energy and you can use it.
You have nice armor for males (IMO) compared to mesmer, monk, and warrior armors.
Elementalists are in almost every game because they are the "main" casters.

Ele. is great for secondary class skills.
------------------------------------
Elementalists can use mesmer secondary as a great way to string many hexes or to duplicate existing skills (hence so many e/me).
Elementalist with earth magic wards and necromancer wells = unremovable buffs.
The only class that can use Light of Dwayna effectively in heal balls.
The only class that can use heal area effectively besides monk.

class specific
--------------
The only class that can snare to 90% slowness with earth magic and 66% slowness with water.
" " that can penetrate armor from a distance consistently (earth/air). (Rangers have penetrating shot, warriors have penetrating blow and sundering stuf but those are physical damage).
" " that can blind from a distance.
" " that can get many pips of energy (ether prodigy).
" " that can knockdown from distance on the spot (gale). <-- spike trap doesn't count, it is not on the spot.
" " that can enchantment buff people's speed. <-- something I love to do as an air/mo.
" " that can 7 degen someone on the spot with burning, which is a condition.
" " that can mass interrupt with maelstrom.
" " that can use glyphs.

EDIT: I hope this encourages you to think beyond the single line of fire magic. I sure have. I abandoned fire magic as soon as I left the northern shiverpeaks.

Dzan · Dec 31, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Sure, you can name stuff that only they can do, but how much of that useful enough to warrant including in a group over some more important character? By my count, none.

antialias02 · Dec 31, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I play a Me/E build that's fantastic for doing direct, fire-spiking damage, and it completely ignores the fact that there was an AI shift. People need to stop assuming eles are useless just because damage-over-time no longer "works" the way it used to. My ele build doesn't even consider damage over time, and it's quite useful.

Similarly, the same concept could be applied to air, earth, or water. An ele is more what you make it. If people put as much time into thinking of a really good ele build as they do into figuring out how to squeeze every last drop of damage out of their rangers, then we'd have some more really good elementalist builds out there.

Sekkira · Dec 31, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

People need to stop assuming that eles are fine just because they can put 8 skills in their bar that wont make monsters run for the hills-and then back.

The elementalist, specifically the fire line is supposed to be the damage class of the game. Yet every class can dish out much more damage with less effort. To counter a 'high damage' fire spell, you just have to interrupt it, which is easy as buggery, or side step it and the ele just wasted 15-25 energy. gg owned.

antialias02 · Dec 31, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

It's really hard to side-step Meteor Swarm followed by Rodgort's Invocation, Incendiary Bonds, and a Fireball for good measure. If you get a few fast-recharge items in your hand and a couple of energy management skills, you have suddenly become a reasonable powerhouse.

The thing is that you -can't- just 'throw together' a skillbar if you want your ele to be any good.... just like most other builds. Except IWAY warriors, but everybody already knew that.

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

"zOMG Y uz an ele..." thread...

I am elementalist monk. I have been an elementalist monk since 2004 betas.

Why use elementalist:
You can play offensive and defensive (with any element except fire, ugh fire).
You have the most energy and you can use it.
You have nice armor for males (IMO) compared to mesmer, monk, and warrior armors.
Elementalists are in almost every game because they are the "main" casters.

Ele. is great for secondary class skills.
------------------------------------
Elementalists can use mesmer secondary as a great way to string many hexes or to duplicate existing skills (hence so many e/me).
Elementalist with earth magic wards and necromancer wells = unremovable buffs.
The only class that can use Light of Dwayna effectively in heal balls.
The only class that can use heal area effectively besides monk.

class specific
--------------
The only class that can snare to 90% slowness with earth magic and 66% slowness with water.
" " that can penetrate armor from a distance consistently (earth/air). (Rangers have penetrating shot, warriors have penetrating blow and sundering stuf but those are physical damage).
" " that can blind from a distance.
" " that can get many pips of energy (ether prodigy).
" " that can knockdown from distance on the spot (gale). <-- spike trap doesn't count, it is not on the spot.
" " that can enchantment buff people's speed. <-- something I love to do as an air/mo.
" " that can 7 degen someone on the spot with burning, which is a condition.
" " that can mass interrupt with maelstrom.
" " that can use glyphs.

EDIT: I hope this encourages you to think beyond the single line of fire magic. I sure have. I abandoned fire magic as soon as I left the northern shiverpeaks.

You make some good points, but others i don't agree with. YES ele's need to think outside of fire. There are other uses for an ele other than fire nuker, but the "Ele is the only class that can...." i disagree with.
- Slowness 90 and 66% your right, an ele is the only class that effectivlyslows; but who cares in PvE. Thats not nearly as useful as simply killing them. Plus most casters not't move anyways so this only really stops warriors or allows your group to run away (who does that??)
- Armor penetration is another ele ability they are good at. But, sundering weapons penetrate, as do attacks as do degen. In PvE, which is what this thread is pertaining to, armor penetration is too specific to be added to a group for.
- Blind same as armor penetation, others can do as well, but who uses often in PvE.
- For pips of energy, Nerco is the battery, and monk essence and balths. They specialize in energy.
- sure they can knoch down from a distance, but again, interupt ranger does the same thing, as do mes, and much more effictivly.
- Speed why??? for a runner = warrior
- 7 degen is the best. But all classes can degen. Let others who specialize in it do the work
- Malestrom is good against casters, but i can't keep my ele for 1 skill.
- others can't use glyphs becaose ele is the only class with them, no big advantage to them

All points you make are good, but nothing i see would jump out at me to answer the original question to this thread: Why whould a group choose an ele later in the game? WHat can the ele contribute to the group that other classes can't (and let me add now, that are useful)

Please excuse my spelling through this, i never check.

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

It's really hard to side-step Meteor Swarm followed by Rodgort's Invocation, Incendiary Bonds, and a Fireball for good measure. If you get a few fast-recharge items in your hand and a couple of energy management skills, you have suddenly become a reasonable powerhouse.

The thing is that you -can't- just 'throw together' a skillbar if you want your ele to be any good.... just like most other builds. Except IWAY warriors, but everybody already knew that.

Now were getting somewhere. If you have a build that you still find effective post it. But defend why it works, and why a group should choose you as opposed to a MM or ss necro for example.

LifeInfusion · Dec 31, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I only mentioned snares because people complain the darn monsters keep running.
Blind is useful in PvE. It lessens the load on warriors taking the damage from meleers and prevents casters from being endangered. Same thing with speed. Knockdown? Knockdown is good for defense too you know. No other class can knockdown from a range.

Glyphs can be used for every spell. An Ele can use glyph of energy for a mesmer , monk , or necro spell. I use them often for rebirthing.

Contrary to popular belief, sundering is NOT useful. It penetrates one time out of 10 hits (for a couple of damage).

Degen is dps not spike damage, you can't compare apples and oranges. As for dps there is always burning.

I have a necro. I do not call it a battery. Batteries are things you use in your electronics. Just because it gives pips of energy doesn't mean that's all a necro is good for. That's the problem. People think too much in their tunnelvision mindsets.
"war.= tank, ele. = nuker, necro= Minionmaster/battery, mo=healer, ranger = trapper, mes= interrupt."

There are not only these 7 builds. Guild wars would be like every other MMO if that were the case. You are not restricted by your skills. Every class has 60 or 70 something skills. You cannot use all of them in conjunction with one another but if you only use 8 skills all the time you need to open your mind to other ways of playing.

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I only mentioned snares because people complain the darn monsters keep running.
Blind is useful in PvE. It lessens the load on warriors taking the damage from meleers and prevents casters from being endangered. Same thing with speed. Knockdown? Knockdown is good for defense too you know. No other class can knockdown from a range.

Glyphs can be used for every spell. An Ele can use glyph of energy for a mesmer , monk , or necro spell. I use them often for rebirthing.

Contrary to popular belief, sundering is NOT useful. It penetrates one time out of 10 hits (for a couple of damage).

Degen is dps not spike damage, you can't compare apples and oranges. As for dps there is always burning.

I have a necro. I do not call it a battery. Batteries are things you use in your electronics. Just because it gives pips of energy doesn't mean that's all a necro is good for. That's the problem. People think too much in their tunnelvision mindsets.
"war.= tank, ele. = nuker, necro= Minionmaster/battery, mo=healer, ranger = trapper, mes= interrupt."

There are not only these 7 builds. Guild wars would be like every other MMO if that were the case. You are not restricted by your skills. Every class has 60 or 70 something skills. You cannot use all of them in conjunction with one another but if you only use 8 skills all the time you need to open your mind to other ways of playing.

First, i agree, that there are not just seven builds in the game. I simply used these as examples as they seem to be the most common used for each character. You could not be more right about that, but again i disagree with some of your points. And yet again you fail to ultimatly answer the original question! "Why should a group choose an ele as opposed to other more effective classes" Show me a build(s) that are as powerful as a MM or SS for damage.

Now.... to shoot down your points!
- Knoching down is useful, but why bother. a mes or ranger can interupt is reallt needed, but let the spell go through. It is the monks job to play defence. With a good bond barrier and heal monk, let the warriors attack all they want. They will be dead before they can have any impact what so ever, esepcially with a ss on mm in your group.
- again i agree with you on glyphs they are a useful part of an ele's aresonal.
- i've never used a sundering weapon myself, co i can't comment on that, but the armor penetration for an ele probabally more effective. But it is not more effective than SS. That ignores armor as well, lasts lokger, and takes effect any time a for does anything. Also with a good MM 10-20 fiends hitting the same target will drop it in seconds.
- i understand what degen is, i may have not stated clearly eaelier my point. Poison, bleeding, hexed are all degen. Rangers, warriors, and mesmars all can do this, and are better at it then an ele.

All of this said IMO ele's are inferior overall to the other 5 classes. Prove me wrong. Show me a build comperable to any of the other 5 that will work. It if your going damage, give me a build better than a mm or ss. If your going interupt, give me better than a good mes build. ect......

CKaz · Dec 31, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosaj Noshnoj

Now were getting somewhere. If you have a build that you still find effective post it. But defend why it works, and why a group should choose you as opposed to a MM or ss necro for example.

My first char is an e/me and I have all the ele skills and the most time logged there. And where in some cases I want MM or SS and could see it being more useful (have a n/mo too flushed out) to be considered not as useful?

Pure silliness.

One problem I had with people chatting on the patch-
1st day it was horrible even one-off AoEs didnt work
Now its still quite fine - yes somethings dont work as well or different but I still can LEVEL things much quicker and consistently with my Ele than anything else

Echo'd Meteor Storm (with echo, arcane echo, or my real preference glyph of renewal) still does tremendous damage. Fireball is a great one-off AoE, immolate a great single burner. Firestorm isnt what it was but I never used it past meteor storm anyways. Lava font is now more for breathing room with some damage mixed in.

Water Malestorm takes a big hit - it was great even for fire nukers just for the casting interrupt. However lead with Deepfreeze or any other area slow and it really will put on the kabosh. MindFreeze + Malestorm on a targ is silly interrupt and ultimate caster ownage (obviously at an elite and exhaust cost).
The slow adds and even some damage helped this out a bit too.

Earth still rocks defensively (heh) and got even more buffing in some ways.
I dont play them as much but Kinetic armor with spam mucho fun.

Air quality 1 target spike, not much can match it and it takes very little/any effect from the more recent changes. Still a regular pvp.

So lets look at MM and SS comparison

MMs rock, but fall to area dmg/degen and maxing out pretty much at 18 vs 24/28+ mobs... no armor piercing, specials, needs corpses and maintaince, some other mobs use bods quicker etc etc

SS rocks but as focus fire goes on targets only last as targets last, slower casters dont act so quickly, and not all mobs (ranged) clump up close enough for it. So stops when mob dies with it on, unlike Ele AoE.

I still devestate with GoR, Met Storm, and the rest of my line-up.
I have no mana issues, a very large energy pool, and quite frankly things still drop quicker when I play my ele game than any other most of the time.

Yes as my necro gets their game on MM can go faster and need less surrounding. But on a party wipe or shortage of corpses or vs tougher enemies or the party kill speed isnt fast enough, it suffers

Yes SS is super sweet, I was playing with it before it became a name brand in ToA. But it doesn't interrupt requires multiple casts and relies a bit on the action speed of the target. ie Met Storm on a monk >> SS on it (until the monk is fearing for its life spamming orison).

So I find this thread a bit goofy but then I've logged a ton of ele hours and try things out over hearing about them. GF/SF/FoW/UW yes my ele still mows them down, and quite frankly my output easily matches or has been better than those necros I've been paired with. There are times MM or SS comes more into play, but raining rocks and DD, burning, and added love never goes out of style or use.

And you can also solo and even arguably be the 'gear tank' see other threads under ele if you're interested in that.

Nosaj Noshnoj · Dec 31, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Ok, a good post, you talked about skills and used examples.
In my experiances, i have a necro and a ele, and i've found that i can cause much more damage with my necro than my ele. I never ran out of courpses later in the game simply because the amount of mobs, and they still tend to clump together as long as no one used fire storm.

Now there are skills that are fairly obsolete (firestorm and similar), do you thing GW will evry change that?

Ensign · Dec 31, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Anyone else find it funny that the difference between Fire Elementalists being a 'must have' for 'serious' teams and being left completely in the cold is...Firestorm? Yes, Firestorm was absolutely the key to the PvE Fire Elementalist. Without it, he is nothing.

Do people even stop to think about these things before they say 'em?

Here's a dirty little secret for all of you - Necromancers were *always* stronger than Elementalists in PvE. Minionators are almost without question the most productive teammates you can have. Spiteful Spirit was always a great skill for the 'gather all the melee dorks on a tank and AoE them to death' strategy (held back solely by being in a terrible line). Blood nukes still aren't appreciated nearly enough - guess what, level 28-30 monsters have lots of armor, and blood nukes ignore that armor completely.

The only reason the other classes never got any respect is because people were too busy looking for the generic tank/heal/nuke trio that has existed in every game they've played and they wanted to reproduce it here. The 'nerf' to AoE nuking (which, practically, affected one skill in that trio) was apparently enough to get people to look for an alternative.

The only unfortunate part is that people are still sticking to the braindead instead of thinking for a moment that maybe, just maybe, there's a bit more to this game than one cookie cutter strat.

Peace,
-CxE